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Showing posts with label finances. Show all posts
Showing posts with label finances. Show all posts

Hobbies Run Amok!

Hobbies Run Amok!

Almost everyone has a hobby, be it stamp collecting or world cup yacht racing or something in between. Having a hobby makes life worthwhile and fun. But for many folks, hobbies get way out of hand, not only dominating their lives, but ruining their finances as well.

By ruining their finances, I don't necessarily mean making them bankrupt. What I mean is the squandering of huge sums of money on hobbies while failing to properly fund your retirement or savings, the net result being that later on in life, you are broke.

Living here on Retirement Island, I see this all the time. People who "lived large" in their 40's and 50's with large yachts and motorhomes, only to find themselves destitute in their 60's and 70's when these horribly depreciating assets....depreciated.

In the recent economic downturn, many folks who bought large yachts or motorhomes a few years back (with easy money financing) are finding themselves now "upside down" - owing more money on these behemoths than they are worth. Many, not surprisingly, walk away, leaving the bank to repossess and re-sell them at far below market value. Like in the housing sector, this further depresses prices, causing more people to go "upside down" and the process repeats. However, unlike homes, depreciating assets like cars, motorhomes and boats will never again increase in value. They depreciate from the day they are made. So "hanging in there" is simply not an option.

If you are lucky enough to have cash these days, you can pickup one of these white elephants for a fraction of what they would have sold for even a year ago. But be careful, owing and operating expenses can dwarf the initial purchase price.

I use expensive hobbies such as yachts and motorhomes as an example. However there are other hobbies out there that can start off inexpensively and get totally out of hand. It need not be this way though.

Now, don't get the wrong idea. I am not anti-hobby. I have many myself, so I know from where I speak. Some hobbies can end up being careers, if you are lucky. But that happens to so few of us. The key is to think about where you are going with a hobby. Here are the three basic points I've learned from my own mistakes as well as those of others:

1. Don't take it a step too far.

2. Be aware you might outgrow the hobby.

3. Don't fall for the hype of the hobby industry
.

One thing I have observed with most hobbyists, is that they seem to be happiest when they are just starting out or at the intermediate level. Often this stage of wanting rather than having is most fun. The mistake I often see is that people take it "to the next level" and buy that "ultimate" hobby machine or whatever, only to find out it was not as good as anticipated, and worse yet, their interest at this point in the hobby had waned.

If you are truly rich, these things are simply not an issue. You can afford such hobbies and squandering thousands or even millions on them is no big deal. But for most middle-class Americans, hobbies can get out of hand and lead to severe economic consequences.

To illustrate these points, let me use some real-world examples based on my experiences and those of others:

1. Dan liked to water ski. He was pretty good at it, and every chance he had, he'd head out to the lake and throw a ski in the water. He had a hoary old Glastron that he bought from a junkyard. It had been in a fire, and he sawed the last foot off it and fiberglassed in a new transom. He rebuilt and old six-cylinder white Mercury and bolted it on the back. It was fast, if not fancy, and it cost him nearly nothing to own or maintain. Every weekend, he'd tow it to the lake behind his old Toyota Supra and go skiing. He had a lot of fun.

Of course, he'd look longingly in the ski magazines at the pictures of the fancy go-fast boats, with their metal-flake hulls and cushy interiors, complete with matching trailers. Wouldn't it be cool to have one of those? Of course, the cost of such a boat was out of the question for a 23-year-old.

Then the unexpected happened. His Father passed away, leaving him a $50,000 life insurance settlement. Rather than invest this once-in-a-lifetime windfall, Dan went out and bought a brand new metal-flake boat and trailer, and a Corvette to tow it around with. He finally had the boat and car of his dreams. He should have been on cloud 9, right?

Not exactly. A boat is just a boat, and a fancy boat can be more of a headache that a "beater". Dan was worried that that metal-flake hull would get scratched easily. They are difficult to repair, and even the smallest scratches make them look horrible. So he didn't let anyone drive it. He stopped skiing altogether. He'd drive the boat around real fast, trying to impress girls. When he wasn't driving it, he'd anchor it in shallow water and wax it.

And he discovered, after a year or two that a boat or a car is a depreciating asset, and that even with the best of care, they wear out and are worth less. His $50,000 windfall was worth less than $40,000 after the first year. Within a few years, it was worth less than half of what he had inherited. While he could strut his stuff and impress people with his shiny Corvette and boat the first year, after four or five years, it was just another used car and another fading boat.

And he discovered another thing. As he started approaching his 30's, he started thinking more about getting married and settling down. The boat and the Corvette were eventually sold, of course, when the new baby came along. I think he got a few thousand for each. His wife was just happy to have them out of the driveway. I don't think the boat ever saw water that last year.

Dan wishes now that he kept the old Glastron a few more years rather than buying the fancy new boat. As it turned out, he outgrew the hobby, which is typical of water skiing. You don't see a lot of 40 and 50-year-olds water-skiing regularly, as it is a young man's sport. He was much happier when he was in that old boat, wanting, instead of having. And the promises of the slick sales brochures and boating magazines paled in comparison with the reality of owning that fancy new boat. He took his hobby a step too far, he outgrew the hobby, and he fell for the hype of the hobby industry.

Note that in the boating world, they have a term known as "two-foot-itis" which refers to the desire by many boat owners to buy a newer boat that is two feet longer than the one they have. Many boat owners go from boat to boat, increasing their debt load over time, hoping the next boat will be "the one" that the wife likes, the kids like, handles well, and impresses everyone at the local marina.

Usually the last boat in this chain ends up being too much for the owners, and is rarely used and gets sold rather quickly. I would suggest that keeping it at the previous level and being happy with what you have might be more cost-effective in the long run.


2. Chuck like to race motorcycles. He had an old Husquavarna motorcycle, which at the time was out of fashion. All the hot-shot motocross racers had Yamahas. Still, in the amateur class, he managed to beat some of those hot-shots with his old beater bike. Some of the other "kids" got new bikes every year, and their fathers would equip them with the latest gear. They would ride to events with custom trailers complete with team graphics. Chuck would throw his bike in the hatch of his old Chevy Nova. The other kids would laugh, until he beat them soundly at the track.

Motocrossing, like water-skiiing, is a young man's sport. Broken bones and torn ligaments are part and parcel of the game. When you are 20 and can heal quickly, it is no big deal, But as you push 30 and your joints start to creak, it is another matter entirely.

Chuck got so good at racing his old "Husky" that he eventually rose to the top of the Amateur class, accumulating more points and trophies that anyone else in the area. According to the racing rules, he had to graduate to the "Expert" class. He bought a new Yamaha 500 and set out to conquer the Expert class. It was a disaster.

The expert class was a whole new world. Not only was he competing with the best of the local riders, he was competing with factory teams and professionals from all across the country - and even the world. Not surprisingly, he finished last or near least in nearly every event. It was a sobering experience.

Then a horrible thing happened. Coming out of the starting gate, he got the "hole shot" and leaped ahead of the other racers. Overconfident, he dumped the bike in the first turn and ended up getting run over by several other riders. His arm was broken in several places and required pins to set properly. His knee was smashed. His racing days were over, and the medical bills were piling up into the tens of thousands of dollars.

He kept the Yamaha for quite a few years after that. Once his bones healed, he would take it out occasionally to ride local trails. But it wasn't the same. And more and more, he found it not worth the bother to get the bike tuned up, trailer it out to the powerlines and ride it. It sat for a year, then two, and finally was left covered with dust, in pieces, in the corner of his garage.

Chuck realizes now that he failed to think about where he was going with this hobby. Taking it to the next level turned out to be a mistake, as he was ill-equipped to handle the Expert class. Although he enjoyed teaching those rich boys with their shiny new bikes a lesson with his old Husky, the international riders in the Expert class did the same to him quite quickly once he moved out of his own league.

Knowing when to quit is the key.


3. Edna likes to go antiquing. She and her friends enjoyed riding out in the country, having lunch and then combing through old barns and yard sales for unique and interesting items. She started out buying small things to decorate her home, and then bought a few pieces of furniture as well. One day at an antique shop, she was delighted to discover that the dealer was selling, for $50, the same antique egg-beater that she had bought at a garage sale for a $1.

Excited, she decided to turn her hobby into a part-time business. She rented a cubicle at the local "Antique Mall" and set about furnishing it with items from her country trips. At first, it was exciting to go shopping every weekend for things, but quickly, it became more like a chore. She had to carefully examine every item in a barn or yard sale and compare it with the potential retail price she could get. Rather than leisurely linger over these old things, she found herself racing through the rural barn sales in a businesslike manner, and then moving onto the next sale. She had to cover a lot of ground, fast.

And in doing so, she noticed one thing she had never noticed before - others just like her, coolly and professionally viewing all these old goods in a detached manner. At each yard sale or barn auction she would attend, she would see the same cars and same faces of the other professional and quasi-professional collectors like herself.

At first, she managed to make some money on the items she sold at her cubicle at the Antique Mall. She bought some items cheaply and sold them at a decent markup for reasonable prices. However, other items in her cubicle were bad purchases that she either paid too much for, or were damaged or otherwise not as desirable as she had thought. While the good merchandise sold quickly, the "dogs" started accumulating in her cubicle. She was loathe to lose her "investment" by selling anything for less than she paid for it.

Within a year, her cubicle became quite crowded with "dogs" - items she had paid too much for and would not sell. She started taking these items home, figuring that if they couldn't sell, she could at least enjoy them, and perhaps someday, the market for a broken colander from the 1930's would pick up. While this cleaned out her cubicle at the Antique Mall and allowed her to buy more things, the same thing happened again and again.

The business of buying and selling antiques was becoming less and less of a joy and more like drudgery. I n fact, all the joy was gone. If you asked her about her business, she would regale you with a litany of complaints, from surliness and mean practices of the owner of the Antique Mall, to the sharp practices of her fellow "dealers" to the rude comments made by window shoppers to the breakage and shoplifting of teenagers. It was a lot of hard work and difficulty. On top of this, while she was spending a considerable sum of money buying all this stuff, she was not really making any money on it. What profits she made were quickly plowed back into buying more things. Eventually, her home was filled with antiques, some valuable, some not. But most worth exactly what, if not less, than she paid for them. She was merely converting money into stuff, not making money.

The problem with making a hobby into a business is that there are a million other people out there (quite literally, perhaps more) trying to do exactly the same thing. While you might enjoy accumulating NASCAR collectibles, setting up a store to sell them is probably not a good idea, as there are simply way too many outlets for such items in comparison to the demand.

Antiques might seem like a market with limited supply for a flexible demand, but every year, more and more recent vintage items are deemed "antique" and the stores keep filling up. Items from my childhood are now deemed "antique." While it is fun to look at some of this stuff, a lot of it is just junk, and not things you'd want in your home, "collectible" or not.

Running any retail business is difficult, at best. The cost of overhead is staggering. Hiring people to help you is not cost-effective. And today, much of what you can buy at a retail store can be bought more easily and quickly online. The competition is fierce, as the barriers to entry are low, and everyone else, it seems, has the same idea, and customers can be scarce.

Think long and hard before you make a hobby into a business. It is possible to be successful. However, in order to be successful, you have to approach it as a businessperson. In doing so, you might find that all the joy of your hobby is lost.


4. Joe liked old BMWs. He bought his first one in 1974 and enjoyed tinkering with it. He joined the BMW car club and was active in events. He worked at a car dealer, and whenever an interesting trade came in, he'd arrange to buy it. Before long, he discovered he had over a dozen old BMWs.

He tried to make a business of his hobby. However, since he was not a businessman, he had no idea how to proceed. He thought there would be a market for "rich people" who wanted their old BMWs restored for huge amounts of money. However, he discovered that "rich people" would simply rather buy a new BMW. Moreover, the restoration business was already quite well populated with shops that specialized in that service. After a few years, he closed his doors.

As he got older, his collection of cars increased, much to his wife's and neighbors' dismay. He had nearly 50 cars at one point. The cars were usually older "interesting" cars, but in need of total overhaul or major repairs. They sat out on his lawn, gathering dust and slowly rusting. He had a long-running battle with the local zoning enforcement officer.

When asked about the cars, he would tell his wife that he would "fix them up someday" or that they were "his retirement" and that someday, someone would pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars for his "collection."

On BMW forums and magazines, he held forth as the "old expert" and snarled at any newcomers who dared question his expertise on any subject BMW-related. Of course, since his collection was mostly from the 1970's and 1980's, any car newer than that was "junk" and not worth talking about. He was not outgrowing his hobby, but it was outgrowing him.

Ironically, at any BMW meet, he would show up in his wife's rusty Subaru, as all of his cars were unserviceable, or not in very presentable condition.

The car hobby was not fun for Joe anymore. He was alienating his neighbors, his wife, and even others in the car community, who viewed him as a cranky old misanthrope. Yet he felt trapped by it. Selling any of his cars would be "giving up", as he had forged an identity as "Mr. BMW." And of course, he wouldn't sell any of his cars for less than he felt they were worth (regardless of what the market felt they were worth).

A better idea for Joe would have been to keep one or two cars of interest, that could be readily restored, and sell off the rest. With the money he raised from clearing out his junkyard, he could restore one car to pristine condition and actually enjoy it, instead of looking out over a field of rusted metal.

By the way, Joe (like the other characters mentioned here) is an amalgamation of a number of people I have met, not one specific person. I have met such people in nearly every car forum, whether it be BMWs, old Fiats, Russian Motorcycles, Bayliner Boats, you name it. I can guarantee you there is a similar Jaguar guy, MG, guy, and Ferrari guy - you name it. I know there are more than one Edsel guys out there - I have seen pictures of their "collections" of rusting Edsels. They are cranky and not fun to be with. T hey think that their "basket-case" rust buckets are worth zillions because they are "rare". They suck all the oxygen out of the hobby, reducing the love of cars into a battle of expertise and experience.

I have met a number of Joes in my lifetime. They keep rusty old hulks of cars and pretend they are worth millions - based on auction prices they see on TV or read about in the magazines. You know, a little paint and upholstery, and that rust bucket will fetch a half-mil in Arizona! I just don't have time to get to it, today.

The reality of the car hobby is that in order to restore a car to the shiny condition you see at those over-hyped auto auctions, it takes considerably more money that the car is worth. You can spend $20,000 restoring and old BMW (or whatever) and it will be worth $10,000. If you spend $40,000, it might be worth $20,000. In other words, in terms of an "investment" cars are about the worst thing you can invest in, unless you consider losing half your money a good deal.

And the cars reaching those stratospheric prices at auction are professionally restored, most often to a standard higher than when they were made. Forget about your rust-bucket ever being in the same company.

Yes, occasionally the collector car market goes berserk. But it usually corrects itself rather quickly, and many folks get burned in the process. In the 1990's Ferrari's soared in value as "Dot-Com" millionaires looked for flashy places to stash their cash. Just as suddenly, the Ferrari market crashed, with many of the cars dropping to half their former auction values.

Similar things have happened (or will happen) to American Muscle Cars. In the 1980's and 1990's, Mustang convertibles from the 1960's soared in value. Clever body shops would find cheaper hard top cars and "create" new 1966 Mustang convertibles using reproduction parts that wer vitually indistinguishable from the real thing. The supply, it seems, was not as limited as first thought.

By the way, don't believe the hype in the car magazines about "numbers matching" or "only 1 of 17 made", "original build sheet" or "original window sticker", etc. All of these things can be forged or manufactured in such a manner as to be untraceable. You want "matching numbers"? It is just a matter of buying a metal stamp set. The number of 1960's cars running around with their "original window stickers" defies the law of probability.

The other problem with the American Muscle car fad is that, despite all the hype, they are essentially poorly made American cars. Back in the day, they were considered a disposable commodity, not a collector's item. Many a "vintage" car buyer is woefully disappointed to discover that a 1960's car with a live-axle and bias-ply tires handles worse than today's pickup trucks. And for many of these cars, driving them is the last thing you every want to do. Once you put miles on them, it destroys the value.

You can enjoy and older car, and actually save money in the process (this is the subject of a future article). However, like any hobby, car collecting can be easily taken too far.


5. Frank and Shirley decided to buy a Motorhome and become RV'ers. Selling their home, they bought a fairly inexpensive Winnebago and decided to hit the road, full-time and "see America." They had camped in camper trailers before and read all the RV magazines, which promoted the "RV Lifestyle" and "full timing" in luxurious "Motor Coaches".

The first year on the road was fun. But they were spending more money than they expected. While they didn't have a mortgage payment or property taxes, they did have to make payments on the motorhome, keep it full of fuel, and also pay to camp somewhere nearly every night.

The fantasy sold in the RV magazines is that once you have your luxury motor coach, you can pull off by the side of the road, and park next to a pristine lake, and then wake up in the morning with the birds chirping, while your wife makes coffee over the open campfire.

Unfortunately, this is all a fantasy. In reality, you cannot simply pull off the road and park on someone's private land without permission. All the pristine lakes are spoken for, usually by vacation homes. And even if you could find such a spot, your motorhome would likely get stuck in the mud. And campfires? It takes an hour to start them, and making coffee is almost out of the question. Not to mention how smoky it will get your new rig!

So Frank and Shirley ended up staying in State Parks and RV Parks. The State Parks were OK, although Frank scratched the beautiful paint on his motorhome on a tree in one State Park. Why don't they cut down all those trees? It would make camping easier. On the weekends, the State Parks could get crowded with families and noisy children. Frank and Shirley stayed in their rig and watched satellite TV.

RV Parks were easier to get in and out of, as nearly every tree had been cut down. However, the row upon row of pads were not very attractive, and oftentimes, they'd end up parked next to rowdy campers who would build large fires and talk loudly all night. In the morning, Frank and Shirley would wake to find a litter of beer bottles and their shiny new rig dusted with campfire smoke.

They tried some of those new "RV Resorts" but found them to be hugely expensive. "For what we are paying a night here, we could stay in a hotel!" Shirley exclaimed. While the RV resorts were clean and full of mostly older, "full timers" like themselves, Frank and Shirley were chagrinned to discover that their simple RV was looked down upon by the "Motor Coach" set. Worse yet, some resorts refused to let Frank and Shirley stay at all, as their coach was deemed "too old".

During a trip to an RV dealer for service, a salesman showed Frank and Shirley a higher-end motor coach. "You know, for the same payment as you are making now, I can put you in this coach!" the salesman explained. Frank and Shirley were only months away from "paying off" their old coach, which they had (smartly) put a very short term three-year loan on. The new loan would extend 12 years, and what little equity they had in their old coach would be swallowed up as the down payment on the new one. The smell of new leather and carpeting, along with their memories of being humiliated by the "Motor Coach" set in the RV resort was all it took. They signed the papers.

Excitedly, they set off for their favorite RV Resort to show off their new purchase. They were big-time now! When they arrived at the resort, however, they found that their mid-priced motor coach drew less attention than their inexpensive starter model. Although they considered it special and new, it was merely just another RV when parked next to the $500,000 and Million-dollar custom bus conversions.

You see, no matter how much you spend on a hobby, there is likely to be someone who will spend even more. Trying to impress people by purchasing things is a very silly thing to do. Only the shallowest of folks are impressed by your ability to sign loan documents. It takes no special talents to "buy" or own something, only a checkbook. Moreover, the people you are trying to impress are usually people you don't even know! What is the point of that?

Unfortunately for Shirley and Frank, it got worse - a lot worse. Their huge and expensive (to them) motor coach was hard to handle, and taking it to inexpensive State Parks was out of the question. It simply wouldn't fit. Even RV parks were problematic.

Frank started doing the math on the "RV Lifestyle" and discovered, to his horror, that they were going through their retirement income at twice the rate they were when they lived at home. To save money, they tried parking at Wal-Mart and Flying J parking lots whenever possible. "This is great", Shirley said sardonically, "We're spending twice as much as we did before, and now we're living in a truck stop!"

Now, to be sure, RV'ing wasn't a total downer for Frank and Shirley. There were occasions when they would wake up parked next to a pristine mountain lake and enjoy the sunshine and birds chirping - before someone in a neighboring RV would start their generator. RV'ing can be fun, but full-timing it was getting old, and costly. And Frank was getting old, too.

Since they had to have a car everywhere they went, Frank and Shirley had to tow one behind the motorhome. Driving this huge rig, with a car behind, was not much fun, as cars would weave in and out of traffic, and honk, and trucks would blow by, pushing their coach sideways with the wind. S etting up and taking down camp was tiring and difficult, particularly for someone pushing 70.

Then Frank got sick. It happens, particularly when you get old. They had to stay for a while in one place, while Frank went to the VA hospital. They found an RV park where they could get a monthly rate, which helped cut their costs. But now, instead of traveling and seeing the country, they were in effect, staying in a very small condominium in a very bad part of town. Once Frank got out of the hospital he found it hard to get in and out of the RV, climbing the steps. Setting up camp and stowing gear exhausted him. They needed a place to settle down.

Unfortunately, the RV was now worth less than what they owed on it. But the monthly payments kept coming. With their retirement savings almost gone, they could not afford to rent an apartment and make payments on the RV. When the repo man came for the motor coach, they quietly handed him the keys.

As a lifetime Good Sam Club member, I get all the RV magazines, and I read all the hype about the latest and greatest (and larger and larger) motorhomes, costing in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I also read, in the classified section, the ads for used RVs, with notation "Poor Health Forces Sale". Frank and Shirley's experience is not an anomaly, it is the norm.

We've seen, firsthand, in trailer parks, elderly people living in rundown motorhomes, too poor to move into assisted living, their coaches no longer worth anything to anyone, not having been run for months or years. We've also seen, firsthand, EMS rescue people have to break out the windows on such coaches to extract the occupants, who usually leave, feet first, in a gurney or body bag.

While RV'ing can be a fun hobby, the idea of spending your declining years in a motor home simply defies common sense and financial mathematics. There are some more economical ways to RV that might make some sense.

For example, Joe and Suzy have a travel trailer they keep in Florida. Such trailers, which are huge inside, can be purchased for as little as $20,000. Since they don't have an engine and drive train, they are inexpensive, and depreciate very slowly. They keep the trailer at an RV park on a golf course, and every winter, they drive South and spend several months in their "Florida Home". The RV cost them very little, and the monthly "lot rent" is less than a few days stay at a "Motor Coach Resort".

The only disadvantage to this model, is that while it is quite inexpensive, it also really isn't RV'ing in the sense that they are seeing the USA and camping out. It is just a cheap way of having a summer home - one that, if it blows away in a hurricane, you won't care too much about.

A better model could be to simply buy a condominium on a golf course, back in the day when such things were affordable (and may be so again soon!). The overall costs could be the same, or similar to that of monthly rent in an RV park, but with the added bonus of having some equity over time.

I've had four RV's over the last two decades, and I've learned some of the same lessons, at a lower cost. Three of the RV's have been second-hand trailers, and they've held their value over time. One we actually sold for more than we paid for it. Properly maintained, a travel trailer or 5th wheel holds its value. Our one excursion into motor homes was a depreciation nightmare. After only a few years, it was worth about half what we paid for it. Anything with a motor depreciates, period.

Going camping for a few days or even weeks is fun. But spending months in an RV can be wearing and also costly. Most campgrounds charge $30 or more per night. Even State Parks charge $15 a night or more. Throw in an armload of firewood for the campfire, and you're over $20. For the extra cost in fuel to tow the trailer, you could probably stay in an inexpensive motel for less . With the motorhome, add in the depreciation, and you're talking a nice Hotel with room service. If you have to pay for RV storage, it adds up even further.

RV'ing can be fun, but don't kid yourself that you are "saving money" or "getting back to nature". Like any other hobby, taking it "to the next level" is often the fatal mistake.

Getting back to Frank and Shirley, you can see they fell prey to all three of my hobby rules:

1. Don't take it a step too far: They should have stayed with their first motorhome, which was almost paid off. When they decided to give up RV'ing they would have been able to sell it for a tidy sum. Instead, that money was swallowed up in the down payment on their new rig.

2. Be aware you might outgrow the hobby: Outgrowing a hobby is not just something that happens to younger people. If you are older, chances are, changes in your life circumstances will force you to retire a hobby eventually. They should have anticipated that eventually their age would force them to give up on RV'ing.

3. Don't fall for the hype of the hobby industry: The magazines hype and promote RV'ing as they are magazines that the industry pays for, in terms of advertising dollars. You will NEVER see, in any hobby magazine, a cost-benefit analysis of the hobby or any warnings not to take it too far. The downsides of RV'ing full time are rarely discussed. But if you read between the lines (such as the "health forces sale" classified ads in the back) you can separate the hype from fact.

While these examples may seem a bit depressing, they are based on real-world examples, and illustrate how a simple hobby can get seriously out of hand and literally bankrupt a person, while providing less and less enjoyment with each level of increased spending. Oftentimes, not owning things and dreaming is more enjoyable (and less expensive) than having.

The key is to figure out when it is time to call it quits, and whether going to the "next level" makes any sense. Oftentimes, it is not.

Take It Back!

TAKE IT BACK!

I was a t a friend's garage sale the other day, and saw that they were selling a set of curtain rods.

I looked at them closely. They were still in the original packaging, boxed up, wrapped in shrink wrap, with the store price tag on them.

"You like those?" my friend said, "We bought them, but found out they didn't fit, so we are selling them in the garage sale".

"Why don't you take them back and get a refund?" I said. My friend looked flabbergasted.

Getting in the habit of taking things back can save you a considerable amount of money. I did not fully grasp the concept myself until I recently moved.

Most modern "big box" stores have generous return policies, although in recent years, they have been tightened somewhat to prevent fraud and abuse.

However, in order to encourage you to buy items for sale, they offer these return policies as an incentive. If you buy something and later don't need it, or it doesn't fit, you can always take it back.

Even without a receipt, most stores will give a store credit for a returned item. So my friend's curtain rod would have yielded $15 in store credit, as opposed to $1 at a garage sale.

Don't get me wrong, garage sales are a fine and wonderful thing, and a great way to get rid of items that are cluttering up your home - and convert them to cash. But if you can get full price for an item by taking it back, then do so.

Home improvement items are a big area where the "take it back" concept can work. When moving recently, I realized I had a lot of PVC plumbing parts that I had bought for various plumbing projects over the years. When you install a sink or whatever, often you end up buying more parts than necessary, as "going back to the store" for one 59-cent elbow is a frustrating experience.

The temptation is to "keep" the extra parts for the "next project" as they are somewhat inexpensive. However, a 59-cent elbow, times 10, is over $5 of stuff cluttering up your workbench.

We put a large cardboard box in the garage labeled the "Take Back Box" and then when we found something we had bought, in the original packaging (or as the case with plumbing parts, with the original bar code on it) we put it in the box. When going to the home improvement store to shop, our first step was to go to the return desk to get a store credit for the take-back items.

In some instances, we didn't remember which store we bought things from. In those cases, I would simply take it to the return desk at one store. If it scanned, great. If not, I would simply take it to the other store.

Surprisingly, we ended up with hundreds of dollars in store credits at various stores this way. We had bought a lot of items for projects and either the project didn't materialize, or the parts were "left over".

I recently bought some lower unit oil for my boat at Wal-Mart. When I got to the boat, I realized that I had already bought the oil last year. Some might say "well, now I have extra", but at nearly $10 a quart, it is a lot of expensive oil to have hanging around, particularly since I was planning on selling the boat. I took it back and got a $42 store credit.

Get in the habit of taking things back and your garage will be a lot less cluttered and you'll have more money in your pocket. Even after a year or more, most stores will take back products, provided they are in the original packaging, in good shape, and the product is still sold at that store.

As I have noted in my other entries, the big-box stores do encourage a very destructive form of shopping - the "unfinished project" shopping. And I know a number of people who go to such stores, buy lots of expensive items with grandiose plans for backyard or home improvement projects, and by the time they get them home, are too tired to even start the project.

This sort of thing can happen to anyone, but some folks are more addicted than others. These types of stores are designed to distract you, and when you go to buy a light bulb, it is temping, walking through the aisles, to say "Gee, maybe we should put in a fancy new sink" or something. Before you know it, your car or truck is full of lumber and cement and parts, and your credit card is sagging hundreds of dollars lower. You get it all home, and it languishes in the garage.

Plan projects you need to do, and do them first. Finish one project before starting another. Resist the temptation to start a spontaneous project based on the merchandising at a big-box store. And if you buy something for a project that is leftover or you never finish the project, TAKE IT BACK!

As I wandered around my friend's garage sale, I noticed a number of other items like the curtain rods - products that were still had the original packaging and could have been taken back for a refund (with receipt) or a store credit (without). Unfortunately, many of the items had been improperly stored (left outside), or broken out of their packaging, and thus could no longer be returned for a refund. Much of these items were sold for pennies on the dollar, which is a sad waste of hard-earned money.

Money takes labor to earn, and unless you want to end up like Sisuphus, perpetually working to no end or purpose. Wasting money is wasting your labor, so it only makes sense to spend wisely.

And if you buy something you don't need.....

.....TAKE.......IT.....BACK!

The PET Trap

I love my greyhound, who is a wonderful, loving pet.  But realize that even a small dog or cat will cost hundreds of dollars a year in vet bills, pet food, and pet medications.  If you are on a strict budget, think hard before getting a pet.  And watch out for pet hoarding - if you have four, five, or six pets, perhaps you need to step back a bit and think about where this is going - and whether you have a mental health problem.


I love pets, don't get me wrong. So in a way, I hate to write this next post. However, many folks fall into the Pet Trap, and it can be an expensive trap at that. Think carefully before you start acquiring pets. As in my "Hobbies Run Amok!" article, pets can go from being an inexpensive hobby to a financial nightmare in a hurry.

Logically, one does not "need" a pet, of course. Pets don't provide food, clothing, or shelter. For many of us, pets fill in an emotional need that is as real as our physical needs. However, for some, pets become an obsession that takes over their lives.

Before taking on a pet, assess the real costs involved, both in terms of immediate and long-term cost, as well as the opportunity cost. Purchasing a pet is often an inexpensive transaction. Since so many are discarded (usually because their owners cannot afford them - a lesson right there) you can inexpensively acquire a dog or cat at your local shelter. Paying large sums of money for a "designer" breed is, to me, a horrible waste of money, when in many shelters, these breeds are available for free.

In addition, by purchasing a pet from a store or breeder, you are adding to the animal population problem - by encouraging people to breed pets for sale. Many breeding operations are little more than "puppy mills" where dogs or cats are cranked out to satisfy the current whims for accessory animals (when fashions change, these animals end up at the shelter). As a result, many of the "popular" breeds are inbred and prone to expensive and heartbreaking genetic disorders, which can add significantly to the cost of owning a pet.

But the question of designer animals brings up another point: What is your real reason for adopting the animal in the first place? If the color, size, and type of the animal is more important than its character and nature, then are you buying a pet as an expensive show-off accessory, or because you want a companion? It is an ugly question, but in most instances, the answers are equally as ugly.

The sad fact remains that many folks obtain pets for reasons other than the desire to have a pet. They want a show-off dog to impress other people with, or to impress people at the local kennel club. The idea that living beings can be a hobby is, to some folks, somewhat perverse.

The same is true of the rural Bubba (on urban dweller) who buys a large, aggressive dog and chains him to a tree in the front yard. He wants a dog that will "impress" others with its ferocity - in an attempt to bolster his own status and perhaps cover up some personal insecurities. If you are buying a dog to impress people with its breeding, you are no better than the person who buys a pit bull to frighten people.

There are some folks who buy aggressive dogs as a form of security - to protect their family. And believe it or not, there is an industry of folks who breed and train security dogs and then sell them for very high prices. These dogs are trained to be kind to children, but also to rip the throat out of anyone coming over the fence. I guess for some folks, such security measures might be necessary. But for the bulk of us, who struggle to pay the monthly bills, the prospect of a home invasion is pretty dim (and the pickings for a home invader pretty slim!).

Regardless of whether you pay $5000 for a show puppy or the $250 adoption fee at the shelter, the initial buy-in is only part of the overall cost. Veterinarian bills will run about $200 to $500 a year for a dog or cat, for basic shots, flea prevention, heart worm prevention, and the occasional illness or injury. Vet bills can skyrocket, as we shall see below.

Dogs and cats can go through a surprising amount of food, and animal food is not cheap. Our greyhound probably eats up $50 to $100 of kibble, canned food, and treats a month. Over the 10-15 year lifespan of a dog, this can amount to thousands of dollars. For cats, add in the cost of litter on the other end of the transaction as well.

Accessories, such as collars, food bowls, litter boxes, leashes, blankets, beds, clothing, and toys can also run into the hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the lifetime of the animal. And these things are not cheap, either. People will spend surprisingly large amounts of money on pets and the pet industry knows this.

If you ever have to leave home, boarding your pets can be as expensive as staying in a cheap motel. Most veterinarians charge $50 to $100 a day or more. Most boarding places charge at least $15 to $50 a day. If you want to take a two-week vacation to Mexico, the cost of boarding your pets may exceed the airfare.

Thus, for a typical medium-sized dog, which may live to be 10-14 years, you could easily spend $10,000 or more in initial purchase price, veterinarian bills, food, accessories, boarding and the like. Considering that a typical automobile should last the same amount of time, buying even one dog is about the same cost as having a second car. If you can't afford a second car, think long and hard before getting a dog or cat.

A special note on horses: A lot of folks obtain horses as pets. These are hugely expensive compared to cats or dogs. Buying a horse often costs as much as a car, and the upkeep can easily exceed that of an automobile (this is one reason cars replaced horses as a means of transportation). And horses live a long time, too. I have a friend who bought a horse, and discovered he could not ride it, as it had a bad back. Because of that, he cannot sell the horse, as no one will buy it. His wife refuses to have the horse put down. He pays monthly boarding fees and annual vet fees and hopes the horse doesn't live too long. They haven't seen the horse in years. Explain to me what the point of that was, again? Poor fellow will have to work an additional 5-10 years to make up for the loss in his 401(k). Think long and hard before buying a horse. If you do not own the land on which to keep the horse, chances are, it will be a very, very expensive proposition.

Another special note on exotic animals: Some other folks like to obtain exotic animals (snakes, ferrets, rare birds, etc.) as pets. Usually this is to impress other people or for other, not so nice reasons (watching snakes eat mice or kittens, for example, I kid you not). In many cases, these animals end up at shelters once the novelty aspect has worn off.

Now of course, there are ways to minimize pet ownership costs, and I highly recommend them. Veterinarians are scandalous when it comes to billing. Most vets charge more per hour than most human doctors do, and that isn't right. It does pay to shop around for routine services such as vaccinations, flea and tick treatments, and the like.

Recently, while on a trip, I realized our dog's rabies vaccination had expired.   A current certificate was required to stay in a Florida park.   I used our GPS to find a local vet, and hit "call" which made the call through the bluetooth on my $100-a-year GoPhone (sometimes this technology shit actually works).   I found a local vet that would do the shot for $35 (for a three-year certificate - likely the last my dog will need).   The technician, not the vet, did the shot, and as a result, I avoided the $80 "office visit" fee they normally charge.   The same was recently true for a Bordetellla shot ($25) and a heartworm test ($20) - both performed by a low-cost animal hospital, by a technician, not a veternarian.

My old Vet would have charged $80 or more for an "office visit" for each shot - a scandalous amount of money to feel the dog's glands and to weigh her.

It is possible that we over-medicate our pets as well.  I had a cat live to 20 years old. I took him to the vet for his rabies shots and the like and the vet said "If I give your cat these shots, it will probably kill him". I asked about whether this would mean my cat would spread rabies or feline distemper or whatever. She just smiled and said, "This cat is so old and spends all its time indoors, what is it going to catch?" At that point, I started to wonder if the whole vet thing was a financial racket.

At least that vet was pretty honest about it. My previous vet ran a lucrative practice in a wealth suburb of Washington DC. He had several expensive cars - Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, etc. and each one had a license plate with his initials and a number on it (indicating how many cars he had). When I saw a Porsche with "XYZ 10" on it, I realized I was giving him (or the Porsche dealer) too much money. He charged $70 for each office visit, plus $100 for each shot (feline distemper, rabies, etc. etc. plus testing for "feline leukemia", heart worm, etc.). Three cats, you do the math.

Like anything else, pricing is all over the board, and there are considerable savings to be had.  The most expensive vets charge three to five times as much (if not more) than the least expensive.   And the level of care is about the same.

The reality is, the vet business is big business, and we treat our animals for more diseases that we treat ourselves. The rationale is very simple. As pet owners, we feel responsible for the care and health of our animals. When they become sick, it breaks our heart, and we feel helpless. We'd do ANYTHING to see fluffy purr again. And unscrupulous vets know this.

I've seen heartbroken old women spend thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars on chemotherapy for a 15-year-old cat. The cat dies anyway, of course. They only live to about 15-20 years, at best. But an unscrupulous vet will suggest to the owner that it is their duty to spend enormous amounts of money trying to heal a sick animal, when the best course of action is probably euthanasia.

Which brings us to the sticky part. Whenever you buy a pet, be it a kitten, dog, or goldfish, chances are, you will outlive the pet. Each pet comes with it, the unpleasant and heart-wrenching experience of having to have it 'put down' later on or to see it suffer. Animals age quickly, and in the time it takes to pay off a car loan, that young puppy has turned into a middle-aged and arthritic old dog. Making the decision when it is appropriate to put a dog or cat down is difficult. Again, as the steward of this life entrusted to your care, you want to see the animal live as long as possible. But often, animals reach an age where they can no longer function. In the wild, they would be killed by other animals or die of exposure or starvation. As pets, it is up to use to decide, and it is not a pleasant decision to make.

While I love my dog, living with a dog does limit your lifestyle choices. In the US, we are somewhat dog-phobic in public places, so often you have to leave your dog at home. In Europe, you can take your dog to a restaurant in many places. In America, only some outdoor restaurants allow pets, and even then, some patrons will complain if the pets are unruly. To some extent, this is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If your pet is with you constantly, chances are, it is well trained and obedient and calm. However, pets left at home alone for long periods of time tend to develop behavior problems and thus be inappropriate for public spaces.

When planning any activity, you have to plan for the pet. Will the pet stay home or come? If they come, then you need to take a car the pet can fit comfortably into. If you plan on going into places where pets are not allowed, you cannot leave the pet in the car, if it is a hot day. It does limit your freedom. If you are contemplating getting a pet, consider this aspect carefully. If you are used to picking up on a moment's notice and flying to Cancun, things will change once you have a pet.

Now some folks take the pet thing too far. Like hoarding disorder, pet ownership can become psychological problem in some cases.  Newspapers are full of stories about old ladies found with 50 cats in their home, many starved to death or dying, or some in the freezer (??) and the whole house filled with cat waste. Or they may have a similar number of dogs - or even horses. Most of these stories have unhappy endings. The animals have to be put down, and the crazy old lady has to go into a home. In some instances, they clear out all the animals, only to come back a year later and find the house filled yet again. It is very sad.

But for every crazy lady living in cat waste, there are probably five people who have large numbers of pets who are well fed and cared for. Every neighborhood has a "crazy cat lady" who has a dozen cats or more. A friend of mine fell into this mold. She had several cats, and once it became known she had cats, everyone in the community started dumping litters of unwanted kittens on her doorstep. She became the "crazy cat lady" not by choice, but by public acclaim. Finally, she had to put her foot down, as the cost was driving her to the poorhouse. She took the unwanted litters to the humane society, as much as it pained her, and also chased away "cat dumpers" from her property when she could.

Another friend has a collection of eight dogs and eighteen cats, along with other animals. What started out with one dog, quickly morphed into a major problem. How this happens is anyone's guess, but I suspect it is related to hoarding disorder - the desire to accumulate things, even if they have no intrinsic value or cost the hoarder money (my friend has a hoarding problem as well). While the animals are well cared for, the cost is rather staggering, even with all the money-saving tips they have tried. They found a local vet who gives them a bulk discount, and they administer a lot of their own immunizations and drugs themselves. However, having that many pets can be problematic.

As a greyhound owner, I get to meet other greyhound owners at various meets and events. Some folks have two, three or more dogs, which is quite a challenge. But others go even further. I met one lady, in her late 70's who had seven greyhounds! No matter how you slice it, that is a lot of dogs for an elderly person to take care of.

For example, if you lose your job (a distinct prospect in this day and age) how will you take care of your pets? Sadly, shelters are being flooded with animals from people who say they "cannot afford" their pets or who have been evicted from their homes and cannot find an apartment or home that accepts pets. For my friend with the 8 dogs and 18 cats, it has created a problem for them in that they cannot move anywhere. No landlord will accept that many animals, and most houses they have found to buy or rent are too close to busy highways and other dangers for the animals. Then animals live a long time, so suddenly they are stuck in a position of having to stay where they are, as the pets have basically locked them in.

Having a pet thus has an opportunity cost. If you get a new job in a new city, you have to find a new home, often renting, and this means you have to find a place that allows pets. If you are young, it pays to be mobile and have freedom of movement. And yet many young people chose to get large dogs, which limits their freedom of movement. Believe it or not, I've met young people who have turned down lucrative job offers, because they felt that could not move to a big city and find a place to accept their pet, and also be able to work long hours and leave the pet home alone.

And in that regard, owning a pet as a young person is particularly problematic. When I was in college, a friend of mine's cat had a litter of kittens. Typical of an irresponsible college student, he failed to get the pet spayed. So now he had a litter of "cute" kittens to get rid of. They thought it was "cool" to have a pregnant cat and watch the kittens be born, but once they arrived in the world, it became clear that the cute kittens would quickly become a nuisance - that is unless they wanted to have eight cats as pets.

Foolishly, I let them talk me into adopting one. Having a cat when you are in college is never a good idea. Trying to find an apartment that allows them is hard. Sneaking them into the dorm is difficult, too. Constantly moving is hard on the animal, who prefers to stay in one place. Not surprisingly, the cat ran away during a move, and was never seen again. I still have nightmares about that cat.

Multiply that experience by about a million, and you'll have an idea of what the pet population problem in the US is like. Visit your local animal shelter sometime and see how many animals are dumped there. Animals that were indifferently bred by folks who had no common sense or thought as to what would happen once the animals were born.

For that reason, if you decide to get a pet, have it neutered or spayed immediately. It is not "cool" to leave the animals intact and let them breed uncontrollably. And breed they will, as that is how nature works. I have some other friends who thought they should leave their dogs "intact" so "the dog could enjoy a sex life". The intentionally let the dog breed with another friend's dog (who was also not neutered, for the same stupid reason). The resulting litter of mutts was "cool" they thought, until it became time to find homes for them. As you might expect, they asked us to take on one of the puppies (no, thanks) and as you might expect, they ended up keeping more than one.

I was angry at them for bringing five more dogs into the world for the only purpose of briefly amusing themselves. While they are otherwise nice people, they are horribly irresponsible in many respect. Dogs live a good long time. Creating life so that your dog can get laid is, to me, pretty lame. Spay and neuter your pets, please. The world doesn't need another litter of mutts or kittens.

A final note on pets has to do with age. As I noted earlier, in most instances, you will easily outlive your pets. A cat may live to be 20, tops, and a dog maybe 15. So if you buy a pet, you will probably outlive it. However, for older folks, this may not be the case. If you are 60, 70, or even 80 years old, a pet may outlive you. Moreover, as your health and abilities decline with age, you may find caring for a pet beyond your capabilities.

I had a parent, over 80, once say that they were thinking of getting a puppy. This was the same parent who had our family cats put down once I left for college, as they were a "nuisance." A rambunctious puppy is hard to handle at age 30, much less at 80. Once the dog gets larger, if not trained, it could knock you down and break your hip. But worst of all, the dog will likely outlive its owner, which means arrangements must be made to care for the dog when the owner inevitably dies or has to go to assisted living (nursing homes generally do not allow pets).

Yet, oddly enough, the elderly are consistent pet owners. Small yappy dogs appear to be most popular with the over-60 set, as these dogs will lie in your lap for hours, sort of as an infant substitute. For seniors living on a fixed income (i.e., Social Security), the cost of a pet should be carefully taken into consideration.

Of course, it is perfectly understandable why seniors are pet owners - for the same reason we all get pets. A pet can be a companion and help stave off loneliness and provide emotional support. Daily walking of a dog can be the only exercise a senior gets. One suggestion I would have, if you are elderly and thinking of getting a pet, is to consider adopting a adult pet from the shelter. Such animals are generally already house trained (and trained in general) and thus will be less likely to pee on your rug or eat your couch. And also, since they may already be 5-10 years old, they may be less likely to outlive you. There are a large number of such pets readily available for adoption, simply because many elderly pet owners pass away and leave pets behind.

A word about Greyhounds: We adopted a retired racing greyhound, and I have to say they are great pets. They come to you as an adult, so you don't have to deal with the whole puppy and training thing. No chewed furniture, no messes on the rugs, and a dog that knows how to walk on a leash better than its owners know how to walk it. They also sleep all day long and thus are fairly low maintenance. However, they do want to be with you at all times, and they are very emotional animals. A Greyhound left alone for long periods of time can become psychotic. If you are not home for 10-12 hours a day, consider whether getting any pet at all makes any sense.

A word about "Puppies": Many folks want "puppies" and that is fine and all, but consider carefully before buying a puppy. Puppies are "cute" but they often turn into less-cute adult dogs. Children are attracted to puppies for all the wrong reasons. For example, one friend of mine had an 8-year-old son. They had a dog (a very nice dog at that) that was grown. Their neighbor adopted a golden retriever puppy, which needless to say was as cute as a button. My friend's 8-year-old said "Mom, can't WE get a puppy as well?" oblivious to the fact that his own dog was laying at his feet.

Now you may say the kid was a brat, and that may be true. But his direct emotional reactions (unfiltered) at least were honest. He was jealous that his friend has a "oh so cutesy-wootsy" puppy, while he was stuck with a smelly old dog. Of course, an 8-year-old can't reason as well as an adult (or can they?) and realize that puppy-hood lasts only a few months at best. Perhaps someday, they will genetically engineer a dog that remains a puppy for 15 years and then keels over dead. If they do, it will sell like hotcakes.

The sad fact is, even adults fall for the while "ooooh!, Puppies! Cuuuuute!" thing, and often will adopt (or worse yet, buy) a puppy, thinking in the back of their minds, that it will always remain small, soft, fluffy, and lovable. But a Labrador Retriever puppy quickly grows up into a large, wiry-furred, stinky and flatulent animal, which may not be as cuddly as a puppy. At that point, it ends up being ignored and neglected, which is sort of sad.

Again, don't get me wrong, pets are a fine thing. Just go into it with your eyes open. Make sure you have $10,000 to spend on a dog before you get one (because over a decade, that's what it will cost). Consider your own motives carefully, and make sure you will be happy with an adult dog before you impulsively buy a puppy. Look to your local shelter for an adult dog. Rescued adult dogs are often very grateful and graceful companions, and cost less to own.

And if you are living "from month to month" or living on Social Security, ask yourself if you can afford $50 to $100 a month in pet costs, before you acquire a pet.  You don't want to add to the shelter population of abandoned animals when you realize you cannot afford to care for the animal - or when it outlives you.

Good Luck!

NEVER co-sign a Loan!

Never EVER co-sign a loan!  It could bankrupt you!


UPDATE:  April, 2012.  After reading this article, if you are still not convinced that co-signing a loan is a really bad thing (and people who ask you to do it are evil) read this article.  Every major financial adviser says to never, ever, ever, EVER do this - and for good reason!

* * *

In my "Never Buy A Condo!" article, I noted that the title was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as there can be situations where buying a Condo might be worthwhile, if you are careful and have realistic expectations.

However in this instance, when I say NEVER, I mean NEVER, period.  I am not being dramatic with the title here. Co-signing a loan is one of the worst financial mistakes you can make. Many people who get conned into doing this end up spending years repairing their credit and finances.


1. What does Co-Signing Mean?

If you apply for a loan and have bad credit or no credit, or are underage, the loan officer might suggest that you get a co-signer to the loan, if you do not qualify by yourself. Typically,this occurs with car loans, and typically, a parent, relative, or friend is approached to be a "co-signer" on the note.

Usually, most respectable banks and lending institutions won't suggest this step. However, the E-Z Money finance places are quick to make such suggestions, which speaks volumes as to the nature of co-signing. Co-signing of loans is more prevalent in the poorer sections of our society. Smart people don't get involved in this sort of thing.

To some folks, co-signing seems like a mere formality - you get another "name" on the loan just for formal purposes. When my partner was a manager of a food store, employees would regularly approach him, asking him to co-sign their loans for him, as if it were a mere act of notarization.

But, as we shall see, it is not. By co-signing a loan, you are liable for the full amount of the loan. In essence you are borrowing the money, since the person signing is not qualified to borrow it.


2. Why is it a Bad Thing?

The problem with co-signing is that you are wholly liable on the note, but have little or no control over the situation. If you co-sign on a child's car loan, the loan payment notices go to the child, and the child is responsible for making payments on the loan. If they are late paying on the loan, chances are you'll never know about it until the loan goes into default. At that time, you'll be contacted to make the payments, but by then, your credit rating is already dinged by the late payments on the loan.

So you end up at-risk, with no control over the process.


3. You are Liable for the Entire Loan Amount

This seems pretty simple, doesn't it? You are liable for the entire loan amount. If the borrower doesn't pay, you have to. If you don't pay, you can be sued for the balance on the loan and your credit rating destroyed.

Meanwhile, the borrower has a new car to drive around. Sweet deal for them, no? Unless you are prepared to buy your friend or child a new car, don't co-sign the loan.


4. It Dings Your Credit, Even If the Borrower Pays

If you co-sign a note, it appears on your credit report as a liability. So your available credit drops accordingly, along with your credit score. Even assuming your deadbeat friend makes the payments (and they are a deadbeat, the bank said so by refusing the loan in the first place!) your credit is affected.

Suppose the next year you decide that YOU want to buy a car? But now you find out, to your dismay, that you don't have the credit to get one, as you are "maxed out" by co-signing someone Else's loan. Like I said, NEVER co-sign a loan!


5. But My Child/Friend Won't Default!

Guess again. As we learned during the recent banking meltdown, there were sound and solid reasons why we had strict loan guidelines over the years for mortgages. People who put nothing down are more likely to "walk away" from a home that drops in value and are less likely to be able to make the payments.

When a bank turns someone down for a loan, it is because they don't think they are likely to pay it back. People miss this simple point, often thinking bankers are being "mean" or "unreasonable" by denying a loan application.

On the contrary, being turned down for a loan is sometimes the best thing a bank can do for you, as they are telling you that you need to get your financial house in order. Loaning money to you on onerous terms that will later bankrupt you is not doing you any "favors," but there is an industry of lenders out there willing to do just that.

Thus, if a bank turns down a friend for a car loan, and they come to you to "co-sign" the loan, you should turn them down, too. Why? Because people much smarter than you have already determined that your friend is a poor credit risk. If your friend pushes the matter, be sure to point this out to them - if the bank thinks they can't pay it back, maybe they should listen to the sound advice from the bank.

And if a friend pushes you to sign, threatening to end the friendship, then they are no friend to begin with. Chances are, the friendship will die as a result of co-signing anyway, as it all goes horribly wrong, and you end up buying them a car (and they tell everyone what an asshole you are for insisting on being paid back). Just cut to the chase and end the friendship now. You don't need white trash friends like that, anyway.


6. Most Co-Signers End Up Making Payments

The banks have it right. The person needing a co-signer usually cannot make the payments on the loan. As the co-signer, you should expect to make at least some payments on the loan, if not having to pay off the loan entirely.

Thus, if you co-sign a loan, there is a pretty even chance you will end up paying off some or all of the note. Since your friend who didn't make payments can't make the payments, chances are, they won't be able to pay you back as well. Once they fall behind on payments, they will continue to fall behind. They never "catch up".

And guess what? Chances are, you can't make them pay you back. By co-signing the loan note, you generally do not have legal rights to go after your friend for the missing payments or to take back the car. They own the car you paid off, free and clear. The loan papers do not give you any rights to go after your friend. Even if you could get some sort of agreement in writing, enforcing it would be expensive and difficult.

And of course, verbal promises from your friend to "pay you back" are largely unenforceable. And of course, they never pay you back.


7. So Why Do People Do It?

Because people are idiots, period. As I have noted before, people fall for all sorts of scams, rip-offs, or just plain bad deals. And often, many people fall into these bad deals because they think "well everyone does it, so it can't be that bad".

But like gambling, or rent-to-own furniture, just because a lot of people do it, doesn't mean it is a good deal. And in fact, those are horrible deals. And co-signing a loan is a terrifically horrible deal.

Many parents co-sign loans for their children to buy new cars, and this is a big mistake for many reasons. First, the parents will likely end up making payments on the car. Second, spoiling a child with a brand-new car is just wasteful. Third, until you turn 25, the insurance rates on cars are horrendous, so it makes no sense for a child to own a car that requires collision insurance. Many young people pay more per year for car insurance than they do for car payments. Fourth, when it all goes horribly wrong, the parents end up in debt and with a bad credit rating, and they themselves cannot afford to buy a new car.

And that is another irony of the situation. Many parents co-sign loans thinking they are "helping the child establish credit." But a co-signed loan might not really establish independent credit if paid off. And since it is more likely to go delinquent, it ends up ruining the child's credit rating, defeating the purpose of the exercise.

Another situation, as noted above, is when some naive person is snookered into co-signing a loan for a friend or acquaintance. As I noted, my partner, as boss at a retail store, was besieged by employees who wanted him to co-sign a loan document. Some people are so unsophisticated that they don't realize what they are signing. And not knowing what you are getting into is no defense down the road.

So yes, people do co-sign loans all the time. But people also jump off bridges all the time. That doesn't mean it is a keen idea. In fact, getting out of the mindset that "well, everyone does it" with regard to any financial situation is probably a good idea. 70% of all credit card holders carry a balance and pay interest every month. That doesn't make it a swell idea.


8. Nightmare Scenario

Susie and Betty were best friends since High School. They shared an apartment together and both had steady, if not high-paying jobs. Betty comes back to the apartment one day, bubbling over about a red compact car she saw on the dealer lot. Betty wanted to buy the car, but the salesman said her credit wasn't sufficient. If she could find a co-signer, she could get the loan.

Now Susie had a good credit rating. She worked part-time jobs in High School and learned how to save money. She had a department store credit card and paid it off every month. And she had a VISA card that she also paid off every month. She had good credit for a young person.

Susie was skeptical at first, but Betty convinced her to sign. "Come on, you know I need a car to get to work!" Betty said, "and that old clunker of mine is on its last legs! They just need another name on the loan to show I'm good for it!"

Not realizing what she was signing, Susie co-signed the loan papers and Betty came home with the sporty red compact the next day, complete with temp tags. For the first week, it was a lot of fun. Susie and Betty would go out driving and go to bars, with Betty showing off her new car. But things started going downhill rapidly.

Insurance on the car wasn't cheap, although insurance for young women is less than for young men. But Betty had a "lead foot" and got a couple of speeding tickets in quick succession. The insurance company quickly raised her rates, and suddenly she was paying more in insurance for the car than the monthly car payments.

Within a year, the aura of newness had worn off the car, mostly because Betty didn't take care of it and left it parked outside. And frankly, it was not much of a car to begin with. While it looked new and sporty in the showroom, the reality was, it was an econobox car that was not very well made.

Susie thought about getting a car of her own and went down to the same dealer. She found a similar car, and she and Betty thought it would be a hoot if they had matching cars, Betty's in red and Susie's in blue. But the salesman had bad news. Susie couldn't qualify for the car loan, as her credit was insufficient. The salesman showed her the credit report - listing Betty's car loan. Susie was shocked to see that it showed several payments over 30 days late, and the current payment unpaid for 60 days. Betty never told her about this!

"Well how about if Betty co-signs my loan?" Susie said. The salesman just snickered. Betty's signature was worth nothing at this point.

They returned to the apartment depressed, and Susie started to get a glimmering of what was to come. Only four more years left on the loan, she thought, and then maybe I can buy a car, too.

Betty's driving (and drinking) habits did not improve. She got another ticket, and then got into an accident. By this point, the insurance was so expensive that Betty had stopped paying it. Her insurance had lapsed by the time of the accident. The car was totaled, and the insurance company refused to pay off the loan.

Worse yet, Betty got a DUI in the accident and spent time in jail. She was spending every last penny on her legal defense, and had long ago stopped making payments on the now-totaled red compact. Betty borrowed Susie's car for her court appearances.

Susie got a letter from the bank stating that she had to make the payments on the car loan, which was now in arrears and the entire balance was due. This lead to a heated argument with Betty, a shouting match, and finally bitter recrimination. Betty moved out of the apartment and back in with her parents. The friendship was destroyed forever.

Living alone in the apartment was more money than Susie could afford. Adding in the cost of the car payments for the nonexistent car, Susie was in dire financial straits. She could make the payments for another four years, try to borrow the money from her parents, or declare bankruptcy. Her parents didn't have the money. Susie filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy.

While Bankruptcy did discharge the debt to the loan company, Susie found it was much harder for her now. Job applications all asked if she had ever filed for bankruptcy, and this made it harder to find a job, particularly in accounting related fields, where she hoped to build a career. It would be years before the incident was wiped off her credit record. In the meantime, if she wanted credit, she could obtain it on only the most onerous terms - often 20% or more.

When she told her tale of woe to friends and acquaintances, she was not met with sympathy. Most chastised her for being so stupid. Others edged away, not wanting to be close to someone so irresponsible, and fearful that Susie would start asking them for money. Eventually, Susie realized that it was best not to mention her plight, and she kept it to herself.


* * *

NEVER co-sign a loan, period. If you do, your credit will suffer because of the outstanding debt. It will suffer further when the primary borrower is late on one or more payments. It will suffer further when they default on the loan. You'll end up on the hook for the full loan amount, and end up buying someone else a new car - while depriving yourself of one at the same time.

It is not simply a matter of "doing someone a favor". Co-signing a loan causes real damage to your finances. Just don't do it!


A friend of mine just co-signed someone's mortgage.  If that person defaults, my friend has to make their mortgage payments for them - or end up in bankruptcy court.  But they can't force the friend to pay up - or even sell the home.  They are stuck, period, paying someone Else's mortgage for live.  What's not to like?

NEVER Co-sign a Loan! Part Deux


Never co-sign a loan.  No ifs, ands, or buts!

In a previous posting, I mentioned that you should NEVER, EVER Co-sign a loan.  Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever!  Ever!

In response to that posting, I got a few inquiries, "Well, yes, but what about..."  NO.  Which part of NEVER did you not get?

And people who ASK YOU to co-sign are not your friends, but are the lowest sort of scum of the earth who want to take THEIR financial troubles and make them YOURS.  And they will, too, as your credit rating is destroyed - even if they pay back the loan.  And guess what?  They won't pay back the loan.  The bank already decided that - which is why they denied the loan without a co-signer.

When someone asks you to co-sign a loan, or if they ask to "borrow" money, just find new friends.  Once you turn a friendship into a financial transaction, the friendship is ruined for good.  Even if they pay it back (they rarely do) the balance of power is shifted.  And they will ask you, again and again, to be a bank.  Just walk away, you don't need friends like that!

If you really want to give someone a new car or a house, that is your business.  But don't think by "co-signing" you are just loaning them your signature.  YOU ARE LIABLE FOR THE FULL LOAN AMOUNT AND WILL LIKELY HAVE TO PAY IT OFF.

And I am not alone on this - just google "Never Co-Sign a Loan" and see:


Why you should never co-sign a loan - MSN Money

articles.moneycentral.msn.com/.../WhyYouShouldNeverCoSignALoa..."You should never co-sign a loan," says Lynn Brenner, a personal finance columnist. If the primary borrower gets behind in payments, "the bank will come after ...


Why You Should Never, Ever Cosign a Loan for Anyone - Megan ...

www.theatlantic.com/...never-ever-cosign-a-loan.../239775/by Spencer Kornhaber · More by Spencer KornhaberJun 1, 2011 – I mentioned in my last post that cosigning loans is risky. How risky? According to the FTC,…


4 Reasons You Should Never Cosign A Loan | You Have More Than ...

youhavemorethanyouthink.org/4-reasons-you-should-never-cosign-a...Aug 19, 2009 – Picture it. On a blistering cold evening in the winter of 2005, I received a frantic phone call from a family member whose loan application had ..


Living Stingy: NEVER co-sign a Loan!

livingstingy.blogspot.com/2009/04/never-co-sign-loan.htmlApr 6, 2011 – Never EVER co-sign a loan! It could bankrupt you! In my "Never Buy A Condo!" article, I noted that the title was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as there ...


Never Co-Sign A Car Loan For Anyone

www.moneycrashers.com/never-co-sign-a-car-loan-for-any...by Gyutae Park · More by Gyutae Park This particular story was a man who called in to tell about how he helped a friend from church get a loan on a car by co-signing for the loan.  He never thought ...


The Simple Dollar » Never Cosign a Loan Unless You Want to Pay It ...

www.thesimpledollar.com/.../never-cosign-a-loan-unless-you-want-to...May 11, 2010 – NEVER EVER co-sign a loan. Don't do it out of love or money. There is a good reason why the bank won't give that person a loan without a ...


McArdle Warns, 'Never, Ever Cosign A Loan' : NPR

www.npr.org › NewsOpinion Jun 7, 2011 – Deciding whether to co-sign on a loan is a complicated mix of emotion, personal relations and money. Megan McArdle, business and ...


Never co-sign a loan, especially for family members.

www.trulia.com/.../never_co-sign_a_loan_especially_for_family_me...Oct 18, 2009 – Never co-sign a loan for someone, especially family. Taking out a loan for yourself is bad enough, but co-signing a loan is just plain stupid.


Should I Cosign For a Loan? - Faithful With A Few

knsfinancial.com/should-i-cosign-for-a-loan/Apr 25, 2010 – In fact, many people will actually cosign for loans even when they do not feel comfortable doing it. It is usually due to not wanting to be the bad 


Suze Orman's Top Five Money Mistakes You Can't Afford To Make ...

www.forbes.com/.../suze-orman-top-money-mistakes-private-student...6 days ago – “Never cosign a loan,” counsels Orman. “Once you have cosigned, you cannot get out of it–even on your deathbed.” Financially, there's nothing ...


Even the "Sooze" agrees with me on this one.... and she lists it as NUMBER ONE in her all-time TOP FIVE financial mistakes!  If you don't believe me, listen to the other folks above.

But why is asking someone to co-sign a loan so EVIL?  Because they don't really NEED the money (no, not really, ever, ever!) but are asking someone to risk ruining their credit rating and to eventually pay off their loan for them, so they can have a new car, or a house, or in one scenario provided by a reader, speculate in real estate.

The person asking you to co-sign is a greedy selfish person who wants it all now, even after they have already screwed up their finances.  And they have no compunction about taking you down with them.  A respectable person would not come to YOU with their financial problems, but instead man-up to their issues and figure it out on their own.

You are not their bank, their counselor, or savior.  But surprisingly, a lot of people like to "help others" and then nail themselves to the cross when it all goes horribly wrong.  They love the attention of being the "savior" of the person they are helping, and then being the "victim" later on.

And the "Well, but..." excuses go on and on, including an odious comment I got from one reader who said they had "a really good reason" why co-signing was a good idea, but "didn't have enough space here to explain why" - and then went on for five paragraphs flaming me.  The absence of real argument is the telling part.  They have no real excuse - or at least one that can't be pulled apart easily.  Here are some of the idiotic reasons I have heard people give to co-sign or to ask someone to co-sign.  All of them are pretty stupid:


  • But what if they are a "really nice person?" who would never default?  It doesn't matter.   People don't default on loans to be mean, they do it because they can't make the payments - and the bank has already determined this will happen.  They will likely default on the loan, be too ashamed to tell you, and by the time you find out, your credit is ruined, as are your finances.  And "nice people" don't ask friends to co-sign loans!
  • But what if they have a good credit report?   Then they don't need you to co-sign.  If they are asking you to co-sign, then they don't have good credit.
  • But what if it is for a really good reason?  What reason would be good to borrow money?  None.  You should only borrow money for major things in life - like buying a home.  But if you can't afford a home, RENT ONE.  There is no "right" to home ownership, particularly for insolvent people.
  • But what if they are "of good moral character?"  People with good moral character have good credit - and don't ask friends to co-sign loans.
  • But what if they are "really good friends?"  Really good friends don't ask people to co-sign loans.
  • But what if they are going through a bad time, financially?  Well, now YOU are going to be going through a really bad time financially.   Borrowing money isn't a way out of financial trouble, it is only pouring gasoline on the fire,
  • What if they need a "second chance" in life or need to "build up their credit rating" ?  You are just risking your own financial security so they can  have a Camaro.  Who is going to bail YOUR ass out?
  • What if they need a co-signer for a student loan? The only student loans that would need this are odious "private loans" that are usually touted by worthless "for profit" schools.  Walk away from these.  Federally guaranteed student loans do not require a co-signer.  Whenever you see this argument raised on the Internet, the person raising it is likely a shill for the lucrative for-profit college industry and/or private student loan companies.
  • But what if they need a car to get to work (usually at a new job)?  Well, buy them an old beater.  Or give them your car and buy a new one for yourself.  But don't just buy them a new car, because that is what co-signing is.  And why do these sorts of odious parasitic scumbags always "Need" a brand-new car?  Oh, yea, it has to be "reliable."  Right.  Gotcha.  Not!
  • I want to buy a house and I found a deal where I can buy a place, rent out part, make money and then flip it for a profit - but my credit is no good.  I need a co-signer.   Sorry, no sale again.  What you are proposing is a risk-taking financial venture - using someone else to take the risk at no cost to you but great risk to them.  Either go in as partners on the deal (titling the property jointly) and agreeing to a split of the proceeds (yes, providing your credit rating should be worth something!) or let them take the risks.  Otherwise you are a real selfish bastard.  Bear in mind that you are wiping out Granny's ability to borrow, as her debt/equity ratio will now be high.
  • We are starting out and want to buy a house, but don't have credit.  Again, where does this "We have to OWN a home" bullshit come from?  And if your credit sucks, whose fault is that?  Rent for a few years - everyone does it when they are young.  Well, everyone with honor and dignity. Cheesy people ask their parents or grandparents to co-sign for them, and then wipe them out financially as a "thank you" gift.
  • I want to sell our house to our son, but he doesn't qualify for a mortgage.  Well, hold the mortgage yourself, then, and have him pay you directly.  Your credit rating won't be destroyed, and you will get a steady source of income in retirement.  Or just keep the house and rent it to him.  Either way, you are guaranteed money, but don't have to worry about losing it all.  If you co-sign the mortgage for him, and he stops paying on the note, you all lose out.  And you can't even stop the bank from tossing him out on the street, unless you want to make a difficult mortgage payment.  If you are landlord or mortgage holder, you at least have the option of forgiving late payments for your child.  If you co-sign a mortgage and then invest the money (ouch!) you are letting the banks make huge profits at each end of the transaction and then losing all control of the situation, AND ruining your credit rating.  Sorry, no sale here, either!
  • My friend has medical bills from a long illness - I want to help her out.  Well, now they are YOUR medical bills, and now YOU have to pay them.  And now, likely, BOTH OF YOU will end up in Bankruptcy court, instead of just her.  She could have discharged most of those medical debts in bankruptcy and started over.  Now both of you will have to start over, and likely you will no longer be friends.  Friends don't ask friends to do shit like that - borrow money or co-sign, or whatever.
You get the idea.   No matter what "good reason" you come up with, there is always an alternative - usually a better alternative - that doesn't involve you co-signing loans.  If a person is facing bankruptcy, let them face it.  Help them out if you can, but signing your life away isn't going to make it better for either of you.

Giving a young kid a brand new car is just irresponsible and teaches them only that the best things in life are truly free when grandma pays for them.  When you die, they will end up bitterly disappointed people after they burn through your inheritance and ends up destitute, as they never learned fiscal responsibility.  And you were the enabler of the whole deal.

So you co-signed a loan already.  What can you do?  Nothing really.  You are proper fucked, utterly, royally, and completely.  You can stay up nights for the remainder of the loan period (for a mortgage, that means forever) and worry about it.  This will lower your life expectancy by five years, easily.  You can hope the person who asked you will pay back the note.  The Federal Trade Commission says this is very unlikely - there is a 75% chance you will be stuck paying off the note.

There is nothing, repeat nothing, you can do at this point other than to hope the person who took out the loan has the cash to pay it back and the willingness to do so.  You have placed your entire financial life, your financial future, your retirement security - everything you have in life - in the hands of someone who every bank in the country thinks is fiscally irresponsible.  Brilliant move!

Do you see NOW why this is such an utterly, totally, bad idea?  Why I say NEVER and mean it?

If it was for a car, you can't repossess the car.  All you can do is pay off the loan - or default yourself and end up in your own financial trouble.  You just bought you friend, grandchild, or child a car, even though you can't afford one yourself.   If all you got dinged for was a $20,000 car and a destroyed credit rating, well, you got off lucky.  Maybe you can find some chump to co-sign for you?  Ha-ha.

If it was for a house, you can't toss them out of the house or force them to sell it.  All you can do is pay off the loan - or default yourself and end up bankrupt.  And since a mortgage is for 30 years and the amounts due can be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (and since houses can go upside-down) you are going to be utterly screwed, as the mortgage company comes after you with a $50,000 judgement and then puts a lien on your house.

You can declare bankruptcy, but even then, the loan amount may be "worked out" and not written off. You may still have to make payments, even post-bankruptcy, for five years or so.  And you may lose a lot of your assets in the interim.

Suicide or changing your identity are really the only ways out of this mess.  Both are illegal and not recommended.

Do you start to see why this is such a bad idea?  When killing yourself is the only option out of a financial difficulty, it tells you volumes.

You see, as co-signer, you guaranteed the note.  This means you said you would pay for it.  And if the person who asked you to co-sign takes the car and drives off to Tijuana, then you are stuck paying for it.

What happens if you don't make the payments?  Same thing as if you had taken out the loan yourself, except since you don't have the collateral (car, house) you can't sell it to pay back the loan - and you can't force the other person to sell it, either.

So, they get a judgement against you - and they will, as there is no legal defense you can use (ignorance is not a defense, although some lawyer will take your money, represent you in court, and you will lose anyway).  They can then attach a lien to YOUR house or YOUR car.  How much fun will that be?  Living in a homeless shelter and taking a bus to work, driving by your friend's house and seeing them wax the car you paid for?

You're just fucked, period.  It is too late to say, "I'll never do THAT again!"  It is too late to stop playing the Hillbilly fucking financing game.  Your best friend just took you out, financially, and there is nothing, repeat nothing, you can do about it.

And this happens all the time.   Listen....

Billy was a college dropout and worked odd jobs.  He finally got a "good" job making $25,000 a year in construction.  He spent most of this on rent, beer, and pot.  He drove an old economy car, but dreamed of having a shiny new Camaro. 
One day, driving by the dealer, he stopped to look at his dream car.  There was no way he could afford it - it would cost a year's salary!  And he had not held his job very long.  And since he had screwed up badly with credit cards in college (and was in default on his student loans), his credit rating was in the trash.  He was a horrible credit risk and a very irresponsible person. 
The salesman shows Billy how he can "afford" the car if he can get a co-signer on the note, as, after running Billy's credit, he realizes that even the "buy here, pay here" people won't touch him. 
Billy was disappointed.  But Billy wanted to get laid.   And the waitress at the bar he frequented would surely go "all the way" with him if he had a cool car.  But before he could screw the waitress, however, he would have to screw his grandmother
His grandmother lived in a double-wide outside of town.  It was paid for, and  she got by on her meager savings and her husband's social security.  He had died years earlier of a lung ailment, probably related to all the junk he inhaled when he worked at the steel mill. 
She also had the tattered remnants of the pension plan her husband was supposed to get, but thanks to Bain Capital, was only 40 cents on the dollar.  And yea, she and her husband both voted Republican.  Thank God that Billy won't get Gay-Married!   Grandma isn't all that bright, I'm afraid.  Although she is a sweet lady. 
Billy goes out to Grandma's house to pitch co-signing the loan.  He visited Grandma frequently, and she liked the company of this handsome young man. The fact that he usually had some pitch for money when he came didn't disturb her too much.  But the check register of her checkbook contained a lot of entries to Billy for various amounts from $25 to $1000, every month, like clockwork, as Billy's sister would discover, to her horror, several years later, after Grandma died destitute. 
And let me just interject here that Billy is indeed a real person.  I knew this guy - and plenty like him (or her).  He is a low-life.  Scamming your Grandma or asking your parents for financial help, is sort of odious.  Doing it for wants and not needs is worse.  Doing it well into your 40's and 50's is just embarrassing.  But a lot of people do it.  Ick people, I call them.  They are so.... icky.
So, Billy arrives at the trailer and pitches the loan papers to Grandma.  She isn't loaning him money, just putting her name down, sort of like a character reference, he explains.  Grandma, already getting senile, goes along with the deal.  Billy also got Grandma to write a check for the down payment as well - with a little left over to buy weed!  Sweet! 
The arguments used by Billy are the usual ones.  "But, Grandma, I need a reliable car to get to work!"  Grandma is happy Billy is finally working, as he was a "troubled child" - actually just trouble.  And Grandma knows what it is like to have an unreliable car.  After all, when she and her husband got married, all they could afford were old jalopies that constantly broke down. 
Grandma fails to make the connection, though, that she and her husband did just fine, nevertheless, and didn't buy a brand-new car in their entire lifetime.  They struggled and saved and scrimped and worked hard.   And here she was handing a brand new car to a 22-year-old. 
Billy gets the car.  He might even get laid.  Who knows?  Who cares?  But the cost of insurance is staggering for a young kid with a new car - thousands of dollars a year.  And even though Grandma co-signed the loan, Billy has to make the payments - which are $400 a month. 
Billy gets a few tickets showing off.  He is young and immature, and there is a reason young kids should not have new cars.  He has a small accident and dents a fender, but is afraid to report it to the insurance company - his rates are staggering and he already is about to lose his license. 
Billy's bills are piling up. He is living the high life, drinking every night, smoking pot, trying to pick up girls.  Then he gets laid off from his job.  He showed up late and hung over - if he showed up at all.  Hey, he had a new Camaro, he didn't need those fools! 
But now he was broke, and the loan payments couldn't be made.  Pretty soon, debt collectors were calling his bewildered grandmother and demanding payment on the loan.  Billy didn't answer Grandma's calls. 
Grandma, barely getting by as it was, now finds herself strapped an additional $400 a month for another 48 months.  Billy has a sweet ride!  Grandma is eating cat food.

A far-fetched scenario?  No.  Three out of Four people who ask someone to co-sign end up defaulting on the loan.  You should make plans on how to make the payments before you co-sign, period.

But wait, it gets worse.  After Grandma eats Raman noodles for four years to pay for Billy's Camaro, Billy finally comes into some money - he gets a good job or inherits from his parents.  Will he pay back Grandma for the Camaro?

HELL NO, and she can't make him, either.  You see, co-signing the note is not a contract between Grandma and Billy, but Grandma and the finance company.  She has no right to go after Billy or his car. And even if Billy won the lottery, she couldn't get paid back.  And no, the Billys of the world rarely feel morally obligated to do so.  In fact, they never do.

People like Billy are evil, plain and simple.  And in addition to being a selfish low-life, he also is the worst sort of white-trash there is.  And co-signing is right up there with PayDay loans, pawn shops, and other trailer-trash Hillbilly financing schemes.

Co-signing is what poor people do, which is why they are poor.  If you want to stop being poor, stop doing poor things - and making poor choices.  Co-signing is a one-way trip to poverty.   Just...stop....doing...it!

And yet, some folks would say Grandma was being "selfish" if she refused to sign the note!  Some folks are truly evil!  Taking care of yourself is your first obligation.  NOT creating more "needy people" is the most important thing you can do.  Before you go out and try to save the world, save yourself.

And the worst sort of people on the earth are those who claim to be pious by "helping others" while placing themselves in perpetual peril.  Giving brand-new cars to your kids while bankrupting your own estate is not helping anyone.  It is just being idiotic.  And being around people like that is just depressing, as they moan on and on about how rotten life is, and how put-upon they are.  And yet, life is sweet and their problems are self-inflicted. 

And all it does to the person who gets the free car is teach them to be dependent - that if you want to borrow money, ask Grandma.  They never learn to live their own lives.  They are, well, icky! 

The reality is, there is NEVER, EVER a situation where co-signing makes any "sense" at all.   Get OUT of the mindset that borrowing money is a privilege - it ain't.  You have to pay it back.  And if you get a co-signer, they have to pay it back.

If your child gets into financial trouble, co-signing a loan for a new car is just rewarding them.  And it won't "repair" their credit rating.

Co-signing a loan won't "build up" a child's credit rating.

If your neighbor is broke and can't afford to live in their home, co-signing the note isn't going to "keep them in the home"  -  unless you want to make their mortgage payments for them.

We all face tough choices in life.  And sometimes, the best thing is to do without.  A child will be OK if they have to drive a used car, trust me.  They do not NEED a brand-new one.  In fact, it is a horrible proposition, just because of the insurance.

And co-signing a mortgage is just financial suicide.  If the person defaults, it could take out your whole financial estate.  Who will then bail YOU out?  Not the person who asked you to co-sign, that's for sure!

If you want to buy someone a house, at least make sure your name is on the DEED, so you can force them to sell the place, if they stop making the payments.  But few co-signers think to do that.

There is NO, repeat NO situation where a person's life can be improved by BORROWING money.  If someone comes to you and says they are desperate to borrow money, what they really need to do is learn to live on less.  Borrowing more - on your credit rating and your signature - is not going to make things better for them.

But it will surely make things worse for you!


UPDATE:  12/22/2012:   People have asked me, "well, what about STUDENT LOANS?"

Well, what about them?  Federally guaranteed Student Loans do not require a co-signer.

PRIVATE loans, which are TOXIC do.  Just don't take them out!

Who will pressure you to take out a Private Student Loan?  An odious "for-profit" college that will give your kid a worthless degree that will never qualify them for any job that will even remotely help them pay off a loan.

And even if your son or daughter DIES, you will still have to pay off the loan, like this poor immigrant found out the hard way.

Co-signing is a rip-off, no matter how you slice it.  When some agency suggests that you co-sign a loan, whether it is a consumer lending agency, a car dealer, or a for-profit school, RUN AWAY as quickly as possible.

NEVER CO-SIGN A LOAN, PERIOD!